Ilan (00:00)
And we'll also see if this is interesting enough to keep in the

David Vuong (00:04)
That's right.

Ilan (00:06)
Hi, welcome to prompt and circumstance. I'm Ilan. And today we're talking about lovable.

David Vuong (00:09)
and I'm David.

Ilan (00:23)
On today's episode about Lovable, we're gonna go through a brief history on the company. We're gonna do a live demo. We'll dive deeper into a couple of the features that they have and finish off with a little bit more on their strategy and also give you a recommendation on whether or not we think this is part of your product toolkit.

But before we get to that, David, what's new?

David Vuong (00:47)
Yeah, thanks. I was just reading about how Eric Schmidt was saying how AI is eventually going to be consuming 99 % of the electricity that the world produces. That is, that's really something, ⁓ you know, the matrix is here, right? We're going to be all batteries for it, right?

Ilan (01:03)
The Matrix is here!

That's right. I saw the

video, you shared that with me. I mean, he shared some pretty interesting stats there. But somehow, I don't know man, do you 100 % buy it? Are we just, are we living in a world where we're just not thinking about the problems of not even just tomorrow, maybe like an hour from now and actually they're pretty dire?

David Vuong (01:38)
It, it really is something to, to, for everybody to think about because we are entering a new era and AI kind of technology is not going to, it's not going to go away. So I do think that, that we need to think about, course, what's imminent, but also longterm longterm implications. I also wonder whether Eric was, was thinking about,

Ilan (01:57)
Mm-hmm.

David Vuong (02:00)
growth in energy generation, as opposed to necessarily consuming what we produce today. So maybe we, you know, 100 X our energy output and all of that 99 X growth is going to be consumed by AI.

Ilan (02:18)
Don't want to go too deep into this, but as a fellow climate doomer, I worry that we might backslide a little bit from the little bit of progress that we've made globally into moving towards a more renewable future. I have a glimmer of hope for nuclear making a comeback. I personally have a lot of faith in that technology, but I don't know. What do you think, David?

David Vuong (02:43)
I think that podcasts that drive people to use more AI tools are contributing to the problem, maybe.

Ilan (02:49)
Ha ha ha!

I refuse to believe that we're part of the problem. What else is new?

David Vuong (02:55)
Well, I recently watched the video regarding vibe coding, which is very topical. And this was a YouTube video by Y

So for those who don't know Y Combinator is,

a, an early funding sort of a company, they will take care of basically the seed round for early ventures and very high in prestige. If you can land funding by them. So nevertheless, of course they see lots of new startups and.

Of course, now, Vibe coding is a thing to help startups really accelerate in the time to market. So they gave some cool tips, one of which was related to what you mentioned on a previous episode about having lengthier prompts so that tools like, Lovable would be able to make the application that you want in a single shot.

What else is new with you?

Ilan (04:33)
well last week I was at a company offsite and I ran a micro hackathon where I gave the product and engineering team a prompt, split them into a couple of different teams and I gave them 45 minutes to identify a problem, come up with a potential solution to the problem and then build a prototype. And the

The amazing thing is that at the end of 45 minutes, everyone actually achieved it to the point where one of the prototypes, we had our marketing team there in the evaluation, And they're like, can we slap some branding on this and make it live on our marketing site like next week, please? This is exactly what we wanted. That's it, right. As far as they're concerned, we...

David Vuong (05:13)
That's awesome. It's ready to go.

Ilan (05:19)
we one-shotted the marketing experience for one of the main tools that they would like to be building. So that was super fun.

David Vuong (05:26)
I'd imagine

that the people who participated, the team, also really saw the power of these kinds of tools.

Ilan (05:34)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, that was actually the goal here. You know, wasn't that, you're going to build production ready code in 45 minutes, but

time to delivery for definitely for prototypes and in the future, I think for features, UI based features is going to be cut down significantly. And also product managers should be thinking about

If Vercel can do this with v0 or Lovable can do this or Replit can do this, then what can I do by building an agentic infrastructure into my product, right? What problems can I solve for users that cut down time for them to solve their problems significantly? Have you thought about that at all in your workflows?

David Vuong (06:23)
Yeah, I'd say that we really need to be rethinking what is the value proposition of a product manager in the new world, if you will, right? In the new way of operating with these tools in hand. so part of that really is understanding the new expectations of what's possible, knowing where the new bar is.

Ilan (06:47)
That's right. That said, these tools, they have incredible power, but they are not going to provide the context of the problem to themselves, at least not yet. So we still have a world there, but maybe we can skip on to the tool that we're gonna review today. How's that sound?

David Vuong (07:10)
Yeah, let's do it. Let's have a look at lovable.

Ilan (08:01)
Amazing. Well, let's start off with a little bit of a background on lovable. It was founded by Anton Osika and Fabian Hedin in Stockholm, my old home. And it actually started out as a product called GPT engineer. We're going to see this pattern coming up again. I, I think as we review more and more tools, but

This was an open source tool. It was on GitHub and it got over 50,000 likes on GitHub in just like six months that they had it available. And about five months ago, they turned this into a usable product.

that was an AI agent, AI engineer to build products. And in the last...

David Vuong (08:49)
Wow, this

is only five months old.

Ilan (08:52)
something like that, yeah. It's really astounding, especially when it comes to the Stat I'm about to share, which is that they're up over $17 million in ARR in just that amount of time. It's absolutely wild.

David Vuong (08:55)
That's.

I don't think I've my revenue $17 million in the last five months. Have you?

Ilan (09:13)
I have not grown have not grown revenue 17 million in the last five months Absolutely not So it's an incredible achievement and In addition they've raised about 21 million euros in funding Seed round funding so they're pre-series a still and their team has been around 15 people

If you go on their website, they're hiring a lot, but super small team, they dog food this product. So, you know, this is helping them get to where they are. And by my.

David Vuong (09:45)
so, so

lovable is built by lovable. that, is that how they're doing it? Wow.

Ilan (09:48)
Lovable is built by lovable, yeah.

By my estimation, they're looking at evaluation, probably around $150 million with those numbers. So really incredible, incredible growth and looking at the things that people are saying, it's a well-loved tool. There's a reason that that name is app.

David Vuong (10:12)
It's really interesting, their valuation being a hundred million, which is an order of magnitude less than that of, you know, Replit let's say. So, I wonder if it's because of its relative age, you know, with the product being only five months in the markets.

Ilan (10:28)
Right.

Yeah, it's a good point. mean, that valuation is my estimate based on multipliers that I see out there in the world. But I think with the type of growth that they've had, if they've managed to keep that hockey stick going, that we'll be seeing them in the same stratosphere as some of their competitors sooner than you'd think.

David Vuong (10:53)
Awesome. So should we dive into the actual tool itself?

Ilan (10:57)
Yeah, let's show people what it does.

David Vuong (10:59)
Okay, so here we are on the lovable page. And now this is the home page of lovable, as in this is what you see when you land on lovable.dev.

And what's interesting is that this also serves as your homepage. So here I'm logged in under our account and this is home. So our projects are down here. We got three projects and it's really interesting that they turn their homepage into the actual landing dashboard.

and so what you can see here is a main prompting area, just like any of the other tools that we've seen before. A very GPT ask, ⁓ or Claude ask if you're using that. ⁓ but, really the central plot of it is, is that there's a text box here for you to type in your prompt and, a, like a go button, just, you know, let's go, let's go make it.

⁓ noticeably missing would be a, an enhancer, the, the enhancement, ⁓ button enhance my prompt button. And, ⁓ as I scroll down below, we can see other projects from the community. So we have seen this before, I think, right.

Ilan (12:00)
So what are we going to build today, David?

Yeah, that's right. This was similar to what we saw in v0.

David Vuong (12:25)
Yeah, that's right. So really, ⁓ trying to drive maybe some inspiration for the, ⁓ the builders here. All right. So let's get started.

Ilan (12:34)
That's right.

Yeah, what are we gonna build?

David Vuong (12:38)
Well, ⁓ you know, ⁓ it's a little bit into the new year, only five months. Why don't we build a workout tracker? How about that?

Ilan (12:51)
for the people who

are still, still haven't given up on their New Year's resolution.

David Vuong (12:56)
Those who have not yet given up on it. That's right. And so I'm going to give it a simple prompt. I'm going to be deliberate with a, ⁓ fairly basic prompt by simply typing something like,

create a workout tracking application.

That's all I'm going to tell it to do. I'm going to be very simple with this and I'm very curious to see how it behaves.

So let's let it go and

crunch the prompt and see what it comes up with.

Ilan (13:29)
Sounds good. Now in playing around with lovable, did you also find that it kind of split the difference between v0 and replit in terms of ⁓ information upfront and speed to delivery?

David Vuong (13:48)
yeah, it was really interesting how,

you know, the, with the three tools that we've seen so far, ⁓ the, the sort of gradation, ⁓ across the three of them in terms of the choices that the teams have made when it comes to trading off speed versus say planning, let's say.

Ilan (14:10)
Yeah, absolutely. All right. So what's going on over here for the audio listeners?

David Vuong (14:18)
All right. So even though I have not given this app a name, lovable has given it one. It's going to be called the body beat board.

I mean, I don't know if, ⁓ that's read your mind. Did it. ⁓ it's chosen a color palette. So looks like it's going to be primarily purple and it's going to be drawing inspiration from sleek fitness apps. says such as the Nike training club.

Ilan (14:26)
That's actually what I was thinking.

Hahahaha

David Vuong (14:45)
Fit bod and strong. And this is, this raises a really interesting point, which is whether or not there's any kind of copying going on here from what this model has seen out in the wild. This is one of the controversial things about anything AI generated is things that are sort of copyright related. Right. But of course, like what they all say,

Great artists would steal.

Ilan (15:18)
I heard an interview with Adam Mosseri who is the head of Instagram, I believe also head of threads and ⁓ he was asked about threads and the value of copying something like Twitter X and his answer was, well we often at Meta are inspired by our competitors.

David Vuong (15:46)
I like that word. Let's be, let's be inspired by all these other applications. Yep. So it's, it's, it's yes, it's wrapped up and looks not bad. It's, it's gone ahead and, ⁓ figured out a lot of things for us. So, ⁓ here we've got this nice sort of, ⁓ whitish background. It's got this, this off, ⁓ off white background. It, we're starting off with a dashboard.

Ilan (15:52)
That's right. And we have a result!

David Vuong (16:14)
And ⁓ here it's ⁓ already got some workouts for us. So do we want to focus on upper body strength, lower body power or a core crusher?

Ilan (16:26)
Amazing. What happens if you click into one of those?

David Vuong (16:29)
Let's go to upper body strength. start that. The button doesn't work. If I go to, what about calendar? it has a calendar. Look at that. All right. So we have workouts that are scheduled. Cool. What if I do a new workout? That button also does not work. Settings. I can give my name and that's not bad. mean, ⁓ dark mode.

Ilan (16:40)
Okay.

Interesting.

David Vuong (16:58)
dark, wait, dark mode does not work.

But you know what? This is, this is not bad for a one sentence prompt to, get a half working application.

Ilan (17:13)
It's not bad. I mean, you definitely got to a clickable prototype, right? If you were a PM of a fitness company and you wanted

something in front of a customer to start getting feedback. I mean, I think this could totally fit the bill and it one-shotted it from your basic prompt.

David Vuong (17:38)
Yeah, it's pretty awesome. One of the things that's also awesome about lovable is the ability to have multiplayer. So I'm going to go ahead and invite you to this project and let's see what we can do.

Ilan (17:45)
Yeah.

Okay, I joined the project and here's what I see. It looks pretty much like what you were seeing, David. And this is pretty cool, right? This is what we were watching happen on your screen. I've got your prompts on the left. I've got the clickable application on the right. And it looks like I have full access here.

So I can also click around and try stuff out and...

Very importantly, I can mess everything up by asking Lovable to do stuff to your app.

David Vuong (18:27)
Go for it.

Ilan (18:28)
All right. ⁓ Let's ask it to...

create the three workouts that it has. I want it to add the exercises for those workouts.

David Vuong (18:46)
Let's do it. As, ⁓ Ilan goes through all of that, I wanted to point out the styling of the application that it made. I think what we're going to find is that these AI generated applications are going to begin looking kind of similar, you know, in the way that. Okay. And away we go. ⁓ so, ⁓

Ilan (19:11)
Ha ha ha!

David Vuong (19:14)
You prompted it to create the three workouts on the screen and it's crunching away at your request.

Ilan (19:21)
That's right.

It's working on it

getting back to your point about the similarity between these apps and what they're creating. The first thought that crossed my head when I saw the first version that came out of your prompt is it's really giving Google

David Vuong (19:46)
That's right. They tend to create react applications using the Shad CSS styling. And so as a result, we end up seeing things looking quite

Ilan (19:58)
Alright, so we're being told by lovable that it has finished and now it has spun back up the application and let's see what happens. Can I start one of these exercises? Absolutely not. Though, it's not very clear yet what it's done, but...

David Vuong (20:15)
What has it done?

Ilan (20:24)
⁓ I see. I can now go to my workouts in the left screen. And when I see that, I see the eight exercises that are available. And from there I can start the exercise. So then it tells me I'm on bench press. I have to do four sets of 10 reps rest for 60 seconds. If I complete the set, ⁓ by clicking the button, it gives me a rest timer,

David Vuong (20:37)
⁓ cool.

Ilan (20:50)
to let me know that I have to wait a minute.

And I can also skip to the next exercise. ⁓ So that's pretty good. That's ⁓ really impressive for just a few minutes.

David Vuong (21:04)
Yeah, it's pretty awesome and you did it for me in multiplayer mode. So that's pretty cool.

Ilan (21:08)
That's right.

Well, now that we've seen what the tool does live with a basic prompt, let's also dive into an application that I was working on a little bit longer on the side here. So I'm gonna share and show you what I've been working on.

All right, so here we are. We're in the tool that I built with Lovable. And so what I decided to work on was something that David, you and I talked about in the pre-recording, which is as PMs, we're bombarded with information. And one of the things that we need to do is parse out what's going on in our industry, right? We need to be up to date. And...

I don't know about you David, but that's a constant struggle for me, right? Balancing my time between moving forward in my own thing, knowing what's going on in my company, and then also balancing that with looking out at the industry.

David Vuong (22:14)
Yeah, I'm looking at all of the suggestions in the app preview that you've got there. And I think I would click on most of them as a subscription to get caught up on the daily goings on.

Ilan (22:31)
That's right. So what Lovable built here is called Catch Me Up. the idea is that you can put in a topic that you want to get caught up on. And then you just click Catch Me Up, and it'll pull information from the web and then give you a summary of what's going on on that topic. ⁓ Maybe we can select one of the...

The options for those listening on audio, it's basically it looks like ⁓ a differently colored Google with some topics that are below that you can choose from. So maybe let's choose AI product management. And so you see that it gives you sources.

including a quick two sentence summary of what that article is talking about and a link so you can read the original.

David Vuong (23:29)
This is really cool. I also like that it's pulling data from the future. How did, how did you build a time machine in a, in lovable? ⁓

Ilan (23:34)
I do like that too.

Yeah,

once users discover this time machine feature in Lovable, I swear to God they're gonna be the next trillion dollar company.

David Vuong (23:49)
Wait, quick, look

up stuff on the stock market first. ⁓

Ilan (23:55)
Right.

⁓ So that gets actually to something that I noted with lovable, which is it is very much a, in my experience so far, a prototyping tool. It's something that gets you to a clickable prototype. And, you know, I'm in the free version right now. So, you know, I five prompts a day and that's definitely not enough.

to really move forward on a complete application. Though they do have the possibility of adding a backend, but really this is a way to see is this thing that I'm thinking about actually something that a user would understand.

David Vuong (24:43)
Yeah, it's an excellent way to quickly create something to help you de-risk whatever it is that you're working on. And I mean, you know, jokes aside about a time machine, this thing looks really good. It is obviously going to be responsive in its design. So if you were to click on, on the little button next to the home, it'll, it'll shrink it down to a mobile size so that can see what it looks like.

Um, and so it's, it's responsive, you know, out of the box. Uh, so you can test it on, all kinds of form factors. And, um, also I think, uh, uh, there you had, uh, built some potential integrations as well. So if that's part of what it, what it is that you need to de-risk, then, uh, this is capable of doing that. Um, but, uh, so far in terms of how we've used these kinds of tools, um,

I do agree that this is better suited for prototyping. Now, having said that maybe a more sophisticated person, maybe somebody with stronger technical chops would be able to spin up a super base and connect what they build here with a real backend so that they can have a more functional prototype, a more functional, they can connect.

this with that kind of a back end so that they can have a more functional application.

Ilan (26:13)
Absolutely. Before we leave here, I wanted to point out a couple of pretty cool features for product development that I noticed when I was working in Lovable. And one of these is there's a little chat button here at the bottom. So ⁓ for those on audio in the left-hand pane, there's a text box where you can prompt Lovable to make more changes to your application.

and there's a chat option. And what happens when you click the chat option is it allows you to talk with the tool without it actually making any changes yet. So this is great for if you're trying to make some decisions or ask some questions. So for example, I asked it, hey, what would we do next to actually bring this product to life? And then it started to give me some next steps. So,

⁓ connecting with the APIs of these different services that you can pull information and how would you search their ⁓ information databases using those APIs. And then it suggested a next step, which would be to connect to the APIs of ⁓ a couple of easier to use services and then use that as the proof of concept.

that shows you that it's going. And it does all of that and it gives you this ability to go back and forth without actually committing changes. And right at the end, it gives you a button to actually start the plan that it came up with. Something like what we saw with Replit.

David Vuong (27:53)
Yeah, that's a, that's a great point. Yeah. And I, I would hope that more people use that kind of functionality to do better planning.

Ilan (28:01)
Yeah, absolutely. So the chat is super cool. ⁓ And then the other thing that I loved in Lovable is this little edit button. Have you tried this out yet, David? man, prepare to have your mind blown. All right, you click edit and then we pop up a little edit screen at the bottom here and it says, select edit or ask Lovable to modify.

David Vuong (28:16)
I haven't tried that, what's that do?

Ilan (28:30)
So you can ask lovable hey fix something here. So it's going to just edit some specific element. But look what happens when I start hovering over my app. ⁓ It's yeah, it gives me all of the HTML tags through the application. So I get the divs, the buttons, the spans, et cetera. And I can click on these and then it pops up ⁓ all of the settings, the

David Vuong (28:39)
No, that's cool.

Ilan (28:59)
CSS basic CSS settings for that object. So I chose the heading at the top of my topic here, which is AI product management. And I can change the font size. I can change the weight. ⁓ I can apply a specific coloring, change alignment. There's some advanced ⁓ feature here, which is it shows you the actual CSS that it's using. So you can just

⁓ directly go in and edit that.

This is like,

A thing that I do when I'm working on prototyping with a designer, with an engineer, actually you taught me this David, I would grab a screen from or go to my site and then grab ⁓ something in the inspect and then I'd start modifying the HTML and the CSS directly in inspect to be able to show somebody, hey, this is what I want to achieve ⁓ with this change.

David Vuong (30:00)
Yeah, that's, that's really awesome. ⁓ and, ⁓ yeah, that's how I do my quick mockups today. If there's some small changes at that level, I would go and modify the HTML. So, ⁓ here you would simply, ⁓ prompt it. You would say maybe change this to be sans serif to use a sans serif font. And it would go ahead and change that class, I guess.

All right. That's really cool. Let's have a deeper dive and have a look at the strategy of lovable and also how they monetize.

Ilan (30:34)
Yeah, very cool. So what did you find in terms of the company strategy, especially in terms of competition with some of the other tools that we've seen out there?

David Vuong (30:47)
What I found interesting was that they recently added an integration with Figma where you would go through builder.io in order to import a Figma design into lovable. So I actually went through that journey and it was kind of weird because I had to make a builder.io account in order to, transition it. So it must've been some kind of MVP for them. ⁓

Ilan (31:10)
Ha ha ha

David Vuong (31:13)
So, but that's cool. because that's something that, I don't think was present when we were looking at Replit or V0 zero. ⁓ if I, if I recall correctly,

Ilan (31:24)
do think that v0 had a Figma integration. I don't think that we tried it out. But I can see that becoming more and more popular, right? And a lot of product teams, they'll design something in Figma first and then give it to an engineer to build the first prototype or first version and then move on from there.

David Vuong (31:44)
It's interesting that they're, that they're choosing Figma as well, probably out of, out of popularity, but I mean, why not choose a competitor to Figma? I'm sure, I mean, maybe, Canva would be interested in, in partnering with such a tool.

Ilan (31:54)
haha

Maybe we should get lovable to build the lovable but where it's integrated with

David Vuong (32:03)
Let's do it.

Ilan (32:05)
How about on pricing?

David Vuong (32:08)
I thought that the pricing for lovable, uh, w had two interesting points. One is that it's. Monthly price was higher than that of replet or V zero. So lovable is $25 per month compared to the $20 per month for lovable or V zero. Additionally, the

Ilan (32:12)
Mm-hmm.

David Vuong (32:33)
The way that it is priced includes a number of credits that you would get per month. And just like with some of the other tools, it's a bit abstract. What is, what is a credit? What does the credit get me? Is it a prompt or is it an application? It's not clear what a credit goes towards. And when I was on the pricing page, it wasn't obvious either. simply says credits.

Ilan (32:40)
Mm-hmm.

David Vuong (32:58)
So that was a little bit of a, the tractor for me when it comes to pricing. do appreciate transparency. How about you?

Ilan (33:07)
Yeah, I noticed the same thing as you did though again, lovable just launched their lovable 2.0 and in that I believe they completely revamped their pricing and brought it in line with some of their competitors. as you said, their individual user plan is five bucks a month more, but their team plan is five bucks a month less than some of the competitors. So, you know, I

It depends what they're aiming towards. Maybe they're trying to attract those team type users, right? More enterprise, organizational type users into their product. And the individuals, they're like, hey, you love our product anyway, so you'll pay five bucks a month more.

David Vuong (33:46)
Yeah, you know, to that point, actually, think about the whole sort of PLG motion where you would start off at an individual who sort of sees the potential of this. And then you would want to groom them into expanding into their company to use the team. And the multiplayer aspect of it is one avenue that they could make use of. And with this being one of the first to market with that, I wonder whether they could have.

Ilan (33:52)
Mm-hmm.

David Vuong (34:13)
taken a different approach where the individual would be undercutting the rest, but the team would be costing more. Right? Simply because they're betting on the multiplayer driving growth to the team mode.

Ilan (34:25)
Yeah, it's an interesting idea. I mean, I think that each of these tools is going to have to find some unique capability because at the end of the day, they start to blend together pretty quickly. And you really need to lean into what you do best to be able to differentiate and create more market.

David Vuong (34:46)
Yeah, absolutely. with the three that we've had look at so far, honestly, they are relatively commoditized, dare I say, only a couple of months into this, this market. So if they fail to differentiate, then it becomes a race to the bottom, which they absolutely do not want. So what, I mean, what's your take on, on lovable strategy then?

Ilan (35:08)
I mean, my take here is that lovable has a really, a user base who loves their truly loves their product. And I think that, leaning into some of these more, team based features is a cool way to parlay that into, growth in an organization. I think that you're right, that that's really.

an interesting way to do that. They're definitely more PLG. mean, their competitors are larger than they are. They don't have a big sales team. and one of the, a few of the key roles that they are hiring for our growth roles right now. So, very keen to see where they go.

David Vuong (35:48)
Cool. So what do we think? Is it a buy or a bypass?

Ilan (35:52)
I'm leaning to buy. I quite like Lovable. I liked some of those edit features, the chat feature to be able to kind of play around with the AI agent, ask it some questions and generate a plan before committing. You know, that was something that when I discovered it, I was like, this could totally be part of my workflow and I could see how this would be valuable to the teams I work with. How about you?

David Vuong (36:17)
I'm on team buy as well. and not only is this something that, you know, the, heart of it is performing quite well, but also the publish button, which we didn't talk about, is something that works quite nicely. it isn't something that they are aggressively trying to monetize, where, or recoup their costs at least. and so as a result, you hit the button and it's live and it's hosted on.

you

know, lovable.dev as opposed to some of these other tools that might be time limiting the exposure that the application might have. And so that's something that I would say is a minor, but meaningful differentiation for me.

Ilan (36:56)
Well, that's great. think this is a great tool and I'm very keen to see where they go from here.

David Vuong (37:04)
right. So what's up next after this episode.

Ilan (37:08)
Well, there are four major vibe coding tools and we have gone through three of them. So I hope everyone is excited to hear us review the fourth, which is Bolt. That's gonna be coming into your feeds next week.

David Vuong (37:21)
Looking forward to it.

Ilan (37:23)
Me too, David. Thank you all for joining. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a thumbs up, subscribe to the podcast. If you have some feedback for us, we're product managers, we love feedback, we wanna hear what you think, leave us a comment in whatever platform you're hearing us on and you can follow us on all the socials at PandC Podcast or

on x at _pandcpodcast.

well with that, thank you very much everyone. See you at the next one. Bye.

David Vuong (37:50)
All right.

See you at the next one.